Okay, rant over. The IFEP comprises all shipboard electrical power generation and propulsion systems and features GEs Advanced Induction Motor (AIM) technology, https://www.ge.com/news/press-releases/ge-delivers-last-eight-propulsion-motors-giant-uk-aircraft-carriers-0. USMC is more than capable of holding its own in a knife fight for funding w/in hallowed halls of Congress. The sloth an Cultural Cheapness of the British worker strikes (what 10 years to build type 26 , another simple basic ship thats state of the art in 2005 ). No wish to start a comment battle but I really do know a little bit about marine engineering and the facilities required. The Russ have support facilities for their single carrier. PR matters, especially when the newspapers are read by the pillicks who make the funding decisions at Westminster. Indeed. [4] No you justify it. Everydays a school day. They take up considerable deck space and beg the question as to..why? This site has no official endorsement by the RN or MoD. This is a freak, bad luck event and not a swiss cheese cock up. There are other limitations such as shaft bearing temperature and hydrostatic impact in way of the shaft and its bearing which often have not manifested themselves until the vessel has been in service for a short period. PWLS looked like she had been running on a single shaft since just after leaving Portsmouth Harbour entrance (when more revolutions would be appropriate). Prince of Wales' fires up engines for first time | Royal Navy I wonder whats caused that then. I hear they have experience escorting the not so sea worthy Russian carrier, hey? QEs replacement might be more in number. ALL the T23 repair work is done in Devonport as is ALL the LPD work. Thanks. The anglosphere is always stronger when standing together, as one. Rope or net on the hub or A Frames 2. I think the Navy have just had a wake up call and it would be surprising in the circumstances if they didnt look at KGV as a worthwhile option. It may have been its hours were up and time for its major service but the circumstances meant no time to sit in port to do this. (The external bearings are sea water-lubricated for starters). During basin trial the ship demanded 30AH,yet the STBD shaft drove to 60AH before the crew tripped it. I have a sense of deja vu discussing this with you and understand your comprehensive reply, but at some stage this ship must have been designed to accommodate Harriers. A flooding incident aboard the British Royal Navy's second Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier, HMS Prince of Wales, will reportedly prevent the warship from going to sea for at . But I do hope the RAN might get an extra 2-3 long range diesel subs to patrol and protect the Darwin-Sydney and out into Oceania in strength and depth. Ultimately, the British developed a simple yet ingenious approach: two separate islands with independent exhaust and air intake systems. Just looked back in here, and now the report is saying prop shaft issues. Im not sure if the RAAF still gave/use/co-share Butterworth in Malaysia these days? I accept what you say about the general reliability of the couplings without question. Yes, I had read about the trials on HMS York, but okd options things can be revisited and the QE carriers didnt exist back then. But as I said I am just an old fart! Surely those in charge know by now which it was, so why the secrecy? The motors and drives are tuned to respond to the know load of the propeller. Meanwhile this is now the second major mechanical breakdown for the Prince of Wales in the few short years since its completion. You probably want to see how many sea days the T45s and indeed the rest of the fleet = are clocking up these days, before suggesting theres any sort of endemic problem. UK: Royal Navy's aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales not ready before The SKF muff type coupling is a reliable method of connecting propeller shafts to propulsion prime mover. One of our carriers hiding in the Atlantic is not known or easy to destroy. I dont think this will be quick unless all the parts are in stock. The Royal Navy is based in Pompey, has been for centuries and will continue to be for the foreseeable. Navy's Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers explained - Forces Network has completed repairs and capability upgrades at Rosyth Dockyard in Scotland ahead of its return to service later in 2023, the UK Royal Navy (RN) has announced. Even if Southampton needed a small reduction in capacity, Im sure it could be found by ABP elsewhere in the UK: Associated British Ports Wikipedia. Should every DDG and FFG also be set up for cross decking too? ABP are selling off 20 acres on the far West of the dock so they arent short of land. Actually Ive heard conflicting reports about how, and to what standards and modifications vary from the parent JC1 design. But the RN never ever really operated the Invincibles on 3 for 1 basis. The Americans will be relyingd on the QECs to deploy to the North Sea, Atlantic and Med, releasing USN assets to the Pacific. I was reading comments on YouTube and someone who said she has been righted a day or 2 ago. Your first suspect will be the MCAS system, because the likelihood of the actual shaftline failure occurring is so low, it simply wont be on your top 10 suspects list. One would expect such problems to be experienced in the first of class not the second especially if there were any substance to those QE reports. A small/medium STOVL carrier or two, also requires escorts, additional DDG and FFG, more dollars and more manpower too. This generation will sort this problem out. Marine GT like the aviation engines they are derived from are designed to be overhauled off the wing/out of engine room. If anything Blair wanted to be seen as the senior partner with US on a global arena not herding cats with an EU navy, I think he wanted a bigger job than being PM of the UK. It seems a law of nature. HMS Prince of Wales broke down off the Isle of Wight in August Repairs to aircraft carrier HMS Prince of Wales will not be complete until the spring, the Royal Navy has confirmed. These are 250 ton units https://evolution.skf.com/innovative-ship-propulsion-design/. Do some ships, deservedly or not, develop a reputation as an unlucky vessel to serve on? Adding SSN is massive anyway and probably far more effective than adding a bit part carrier capability and o overstretching things in all directions. I think whatever you say there is a case for KGV Southampton that can be done if there is a Will. As above, this article will be updated when the extent of the issue is made clear. Pretty extensive damage will occur. Prince of Wales Why does a class of ship of this displacement, beam & draught not have 4 shafts/props One may liken it to Nelson & Rodney with their pair of oversized props. Why spend huge amounts Rd if money building one when two exist that work and a third exists that can be made to work? HMS Prince of Wales aircraft carrier Ship Review | CruiseMapper Their biggest customer was Wightlink ferries (using 9 dock IIRC). Fantasies about getting revenue from commercial dockings or even more fancifully foreign navies are just that. QNLZ was due to commence a 4-month deployment to the Baltic and Mediterranean with embarked F-35 jets. It is sloppy workmanship as demonstrated on TV on the Queen Elizabeth: missing bolts on the shaft supports signed off by engineers in the yards and on board. Heres hoping that next time around, this or a similar course will be what the RN does. Would never have got past the IAC and would have cost more to build and more to operate. Im sorry for your loss, What is the big P on the deck for? Tiny amount of prop wash means little or no power in the water.? Successful Sea Trial of UK's Aircraft Carrier, HMS Prince of Wales If it needs drying docking thatll be a trip to Babcocks in Rosyth, waiting for the tide to be right to get under the bridges and so on, and so on. Besides, a glance over the back end wouldnt tell you much the prop was possibly turning slowly anyway and only and the inertial of the coupling providing enough rotational momentum through the two parts of the coupling. I would say the time passed the loss of skilled staff, the dock gate and other pumping equipment means its no longer useable as a dry dock. "Building one aircraft carrier is a sign of national ambition. A coupling failure is very, very unusual; Rudder damage? That we stayed too long or invaded Iraq has no relevance to the usefulness of these carriers whatsoever. Not ideal, but then only a national scandal if you read and believe the Daily Mail or (these days) the Daily Telegraph. What I dont quite get is that mis alignment problems were originally reported for the QE during trials and then we were told they were within acceptable limits. Southampton doesnt have anything viable for military ship repair on that scale. However, systems Redundancy and therefore safety would be reduced so it might be a toss up as to wether to send her trans Atlantic on one screw or to delay for repairs or scrap the training for the second year running. This treaty limited the number of ships each nation was allowed to build and capped the tonnage of all capital ships at 35,000 tons. Wave class tankers to remain in extended readiness to 2028, British troops raid Poland and call in rocket strikes, Tory MP demands reverse army cuts, forces stretched, New British fighter jet undergoes ejection seat testing, NHS trusts challenged by attack surface complexities, Four nations join forces to bolster Ukraines air defence, Tempest Facts on Britains new fighter jet programme, Rolls-Royce Expands for Aussie submarine reactor needs, Enough is Enough, Francois blasts military home safety. , Dr Barry William Maiden Phd eng Bsc eng Ch.eng FIMARE its simple the ship builders are responsible for all repairs due to the warranty given by the makers Even after agreed sea trials as this is not due to normal wear and tear We all new these two vessels were a disaster waiting to happen as they were built by yards who had lost two generations of shipbuilders xxx. Should probably point out that in the last piece where Id suggested she might have put to sea aware of there being an issue, I *was* joking. The vessel was to visit New York, Halifax in Canada, and the Caribbean. On December 10, Prince of Wales and Repulse were caught in the open sea by eighty-seven Japanese aircraft. Invincibles were bigger inside than their displacement showed. It will be called the Coral Sea Incident! Better to break down off the Isle of Wight than on an operational or combat deployment far from home. I know a bit about taking GTs up uptakes. How long does such take to fix? The cause of the defect was noted as a misalignment in the starboard shaft from . Some of his details may have been off the mark , but the thrust of it is correct. ( the Southampton dock was never owned by military) You realise that linguistically that that is nonsense or are you so used to spouting it you dont notice? Id start with cill depth of water below chart datum. Its a balmy 32 degs now. All of them! When it mentions problems with the GE Motors, are these the same motors that cause the problems on the Type 45s or am I just entirely wrong ? Not a one of them has thus far looked at the whether depth of water available in KGV itself is restricted. Rosyth has a number of docks so keeping the biggest open for the carriers still leaves others on site doing RN repair/refit/scrapping work plus the ship building operation. As for not matching the aviation that is one of the reasons why QE was given the green light. Bilge and keel blocks are usually less than 2metres high. Yeah its been a long road. But saying that, my first posting was Chatham, Posted to Chatham? Still not satisfied with explanation in face of 24h delay in departure, issues with motors. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); document.getElementById( "ak_js_2" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Sounds very fishy how can you have a misaligned shaft that operates within acceptable vibration limits. QEC has 6 engines capable of providing power at levels required to push the ship through the water, and these are distributed well, so a far superior version of IEP. ALL the T45 work is done in Portsmouth (standfast the PIP, which I suspect will migrate south). Australia can hardly poke fun at the UK. Anybody? George, Us Aussies have a chip on both shoulders? should have gone for the pod system . So unlikely DMND would go to the states. HMS Prince of Wales embarked with F-35s from 207 squadron, September 2021. "Strategic significance" of the F-35 operating from Prince of Wales as well as the flagship was "profound".". When I was in the army, our target was for 70% of key equipment to be fit for operations at all times, rising to 90% after a period of concerted maintenance work. Given her substantial beam, she is worthy of 4. thought they said yesterday it hit the bottom or something, POW arrived back in Portsmouth about 6 pm on Saturday. There is a genuine school of thought that some QEC type carriers are needed along with the Fords / Nimitz / Gators as the availability and costs of the Nimitz / Ford is eye watering. So patronising as well as an idiot with poor grammar! HMS Prince of Wales - Shaft failure investigation results 2 shafts. You could build facilities over it as well as around. She will perform some of the defence. Somebody please send this article to every newspaper in Britain so their articles are not so inaccurate, sensationalist, and just downright wrong! Plagued with problems et al. Issues were also not identified during No it wasnt the full capacity, but thats not the point I was trying to make. There are no trainers based in the US. She was an unlucky ship. Money and resources could of been spent far better on something far more useful. The only thing that isnt there is a QEC-sized dock. Political decisions taken by here today gone tomorrow corrupt.I shall stop now, just an old fart. What we do needed is a dedicated ship building facility with an adjoining ship repair facility built in a large site with room for expansion and built for optimal ship building efficiency. During builder trials all the experts were onboard with the extra sensors etc. I contacted the Ministry of Defence and was told. Whilst I can see the points you make, the simple fact is as far as I can remember we never had this problem with the Invincible Class ships. Ha ha!! You wont be listening to props, youll be shutting the motor down as quickly as possible, because you really dont want to do that sort of damage. Instead, she will sail next week for the east coast of the US, most likely with her escorts HMS Defender, Diamond and Kent. Which is why we have Fleet Time and none-Fleet time support periods. Probably. In fact since 2000 you have to ask what has gone wrong with RN Naval Propulsion since we have now had the well documented T45 problems, the T23 problems since their upgrades with the latest being a dead ship at one point and now Carrier problems. Subsequent updates suggest the motors were in fact working correctly and their strange behaviour was the result of the coupling failure. See if you can guess how many have CVN-sized docks (it isnt both). That could mean 1 more would have LPH capability to replace HMS Ocean. Also, arent they too slow for carriers? Its a shame the old King George V dry dock in Southampton is no longer operational. A 3 April letter to the chair of the UK House of Commons Defence Committee and former Minister of State for Defence Procurement, Alex Chalk MP, reported that the planned capability enhancements included upgrades to the carrier's flight deck to allow expanded Lockheed Martin F-35B Lightning II operations, updates to communications and information systems, and upgrades to the carrier's combat management system (CMS) architecture. A source told me that divers were sent down to determine what was wrong after issues were noticed onboard, and once they returned, the divers had concerns over the starboard propellor shaft. So I can understand the desire to test it out at sea rather than alongside. No Dry Dock in Pompey but one (KGV dock) down the road in Southampton with direct access to a good depth of water. Since the 1980s the commission date has become associated with the first time a new warship raised the white ensign. Ditto change of props. The cause of the shaft casualty remains to be determined, but it suggests an unprecedented component failure rather than anything done in build. It was paid for with taxpayers money. Which is a good fraction of the intended deck spot and plenty to make SRVL a lot more tricky than Wizzers couple of days flying trials. I think a big part of the enthusiasm for KGV comes from the anti Scottish sentiment that is quite prevalent here. You may want to research what became of Fleet Support Ltd and how many dockings and types of ship they managed.. Yeah. Id expect that running on asymmetric power for so long would be great for wear on the other shaft or hull for really long periods but GB might correct me on that. HMS Prince Of Wales: The Largest And Most Powerful Warship Ever Built While the misalignment had been previously identified, vibration readings during Thats related to the power output able to be used by the propellers. Incorrect assembly, 2 Catastrophic failure of the outer sleeve due to material defect , 3 Incorrectly dimensioned shaft or inner sleeve of the coupling resulting in inadequate interference fit when assembled . HMS Prince of Wales. Not least because the stbd shaft is the shorter of the two. Westlant exercise is in the North Atlantic. HMS Prince of Wales: French firm is focus of inquiry into faulty Remind the pilots to put it in park mode. Hopefully doesnt require months of fine tuning and callibration. The inquiry identified one causal factor as the misalignment of the starboard shaft from the build stage and the incorrect installation of key components. Quite right, just as we had no business being in Iraq and Afghanistan. A decade from now one will be at sea and one will be in refit. latest reports to House of Commons give a 2026 closing date. Just a thought. Now that would really give PLAN planners the cold sweats at night. I am led to believe she would fit in there. Whoever (i) set the limits and/or (ii) designed a clearly ineffective vibration detection system should be firmly established & should be prosecuted through the courts for negligence. In what way are the aircraft in the US trainers? I also thought that I read somewhere that the former Chief of Staff Angus Houston, whos still around, was wanting a Canberra sized aircraft carrier for the RAN at one stage? The spokesman added: "Once the ship has completed her propulsion trials, she will bring her flight deck back to life before returning to Portsmouth to prepare for her autumn . Hi Daniele, I found this rather amazing model kit online with some great pictures including one of the rudders and propellers. If the balloon does go up the QEs will be with the USN / USMC ARGs carrying USMC Bravos freeing LHx deck and hangar space for Osprey. Apart from the PR and reputational damage, further delay in F-35 SRVL developmental flying is perhaps the biggest single cause for concern resulting from the breakdown. The news was passed on to Commodore Steve Moorhouse, commanding the UK's carrier strike group from on board HMS Queen Elizabeth in the Mediterranean. We have had SSN and carriers for decades. It is possible her 5-yearly Lloyds Naval Ship Rules hull inspection which was due next year anyway will be brought forward and combined with the repair work, allowing more availability for her in future. Probably connected to those that are over seeing the constructing Ajax. In addition, quite impressed w/ the erudition of some who chose to comment: believe there are shipyard execs, marine and design engineers, maintenance supervisors and almost innumerable operators w/ in depth experience lurking on this site. Sort it out, move on, thats what the RN will do, and if industry are found culpable with parts/spares etc then they will repair at their cost. The letter estimates the financial cost of the defect to be approximately 25 million. Babcock awarded 10-year contract for dry docking Royal Navy aircraft carriers at Rosyth, HMS Queen Elizabeth making an impression in New York. Something as closeRead more . With 1 in deep maintenance, 1 in light maintenance able to deploy if required with some notice and 1 active as they permanently rotate, rather than putting all our eggs in one available ship at a time. Im a retired mechanical engineering fitter and Ive seen couplings and shafts give way if slightly out of line either vertical or horizontal. All territorial rights extinguished by the Treaty signatories. The Ford class are ridiculously expensive but a version of the QE class carrier could be ideal. The stricken Prince of Wales is the sister ship to HMS Queen Elizabeth, which set sail for America in September last year . Great comment. Hoping to jump the queue, RN has a dock on standby at its Rosyth base exactly for this sort of scenario. These disappointments are not uncommon with new ships. We also has one of the largest EEZs in the world, spread from the Antarctic to the north seas, Atlantic to Pacific. 43 cdo are based across the clyde at faslane, and could provide a temp security until a permanent solution is put in place. As an aside the MoD(N) are constantly looking to reduce the number of harbour movements because of cost. Anyway you dont need a carrier or even a frigate to have supervision of your EEZ , a patrol vessel will do but wait. UK has lost its deep technical expertise. The terrorists that killed 67 UK citizens on 9/11 were in part trained and coordinated from Afghanistan. Threaders can also mean absolutely fecked. Aviation ships are best built big. They had a minimum legal duty of care & failed in that duty. The dock plan has to match as does the profile. I was told that the shaft itself appears to be damaged, but I dont believe its appropriate to comment on the extent of any potential damage at this stage, given the specifics of any damage cannot be confirmed. 9025 Views Royal Navy Plans Preemptive Repairs to HMS Prince of Wales' Port Shaft Prince of Wales' deployment in August 2022 was cut short only miles from the dock due to a problem with. As for security, container ports are already well protected (no-one can just stroll in) and the dock is well-within the boundary. Im sure they remembered to turn the shaft while she sat idle in Portsmouth all that time. And what happens when a commercial ship is using this new mega Portsmouth dry dock when the RN suddenly wants it ? A very useful comment by a marine engineer at the bottom of the comments wonders if the coupling was disconnected for testing the motors and might not have been reconnected properly ? As for holding off a PLAN fleet, that will be the job of the RAN SSNs and also RAAF aircraftRead more , Gday John, I was going to ask you if the RAAF Hornet/Growlers are USN carrier compatible ? But I imagine the senior officers will go on leave. At all times the RN has delivered its Carrier commitments to NATO.. A lot of the big costs for a surface ship are systems not hull. The POW is no different but obviously such an event is newsworthy. That suggests that the coupling broke and the shaft aft of the coupling slid back and the prop boss hit the rudder!!!! SKF coupling systems are designed to resist high torques to provide maximum strength reducing downtime while keeping your operations running., docked for planned maintenance at the Blohm & Voss Shipyard in Hamburg, Germany. The costs could be offset by allowing foreign navies and commercial shipping to use the dry dock. The days of a ship being relieved on station are long gone. Mean time between failures on SKF/Voith couplings: all T21, T42, T22, T23, T45 and foreign navies and commercial vessels, x 2 the x hours run. The warship is now at anchor as the potential damage is inspected. The heart of the UK's second new aircraft carrier now gently beats after her engines were fired up for the first time. Navy Lookout at its best. Most of these things are not singular errors but a chain of medium sized errors whichRead more , Cheers SB , I doubt if 30% of port or strbd wheel will be the Norm for OOW maneuvers when POW sets out for sea trials just in case fingerscrossed so too speak just Kidding. Second your compliment! HMS Prince of Wales (53) | Military Wiki | Fandom These things happen, best that they happen early in a ships career. Sounds to me another MOD cover up 3.2 billion cover up. The Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier HMS . Yep we have AC internally and fans for the engine rooms. it will be rare that both will be available. Wave class tankers to remain in extended readiness to 2028, https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2002-04-24/debates/00e95200-4822-429c-b89e-efb4b7c36850/HmsYork(SeaRamTrial), Four nations join forces to bolster Ukraines air defence, NHS trusts challenged by attack surface complexities, Defence Committee Chair warns over British military decline, UK Minister discusses Russian bomber fleet, Ukraine war shows conflict expanding into space, Military helicopter draws crown over London, Enough is Enough, Francois blasts military home safety, British aircraft continue to supply Ukraine with firepower. The Department has reportedly conducted a preliminary examination of the investigation and the events that contributed to the defect, directing an urgent review. I suspect it will be the length of shaft too long. Are you feeling ok? That is why they built huge carriers to operate in a small harbour without bow and stern thrusters. Any other characters flaws you want to publicise? Thanks, that makes more sense- like @Salty Dog I was thinking in Amp hours and wondering what mental gymnastics were needed to make that work easily! Ideal ship, planes, tanks, missiles and radars never break and need fixing..honest guvthe Russians have weapons nobody elses has: they never work even on a good day. I understood both can operate fixed and rotary wing aircraft and each can take over the role of the other. I do believe D lock was being looked at. Besides replacing shafts and propellors is relatively simple work and doesnt need vaste workshops and gazzilions of riveters, sailmakers and welders. My local rag on the wight is filled with comments about billions of pounds wasted. That is problem now its all in public gaze. 2014-2021 UK Defence Journal, all rights reserved. The ships are the largest ever built for the Royal Navy and the carriers are powered by GE's energy-efficient, integrated full-electric propulsion system. He also works for the NHS. The second of the U.K.'s Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers, HMS Prince of Wales has recently completed a successful sea trial in Scottish waters. If she doesnt make this Sept/Oct slot then its hard to blame them if the MOD gets a big no show bill, and shes then put on the long finger for a third attempt.
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